Curse

Chthon · Dec 04, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I've just started a PvE mesmer, and so far I'm finding them everything bad people have ever called them and even less.

Inspired by this thread, I'm putting out a 10k bounty on a "good" PvE mesmer build. By "good" I mean a build that does something unconditionally useful in PvE, and does it at least as well as all other classes.

So far my impressions have been that:

A mesmer can do direct damage with skills like e-burn and e-surge, but they can't match the DPS of fire and earth eles.
A mesmer can do curse damage, but they can't match the DPS a necro can do with Spiteful Spirit (+ Reckless Haste) + Mark of Pain + Barbs.
A mesmer can do some melee shutdown, but they can't shut down as many attackers as quickly and effectively as an ele warder or a curse necro with Enfeebling Blood + Reckless Haste(/Shadow of Fear).
A mesmer can do some interrupts/caster shutdown, but they can't do so as continuously and as cheaply (energy-wise or skillslot-wise) as a ranger with skills like Broadhead Arrow, Magebane Shot, Distracting Shot, Concussion Shot, and Savage Shot.
I might add that one skill that seems to show some promise here is Arcane Conundrum, which provides some AoE shutdown, albeit "light" shutdown, that rangers can't really match well (Choking Gas requires foes to stay bunched). But one skill does not a build make.
A mesmer can cause and spread conditions, but this seems to rarely accomplish anything more than just causing 10 degen -- something a necro can do on an AoE basis with just 2 non-elite skillslots (Rotting Flesh + Well of Suffering). So far, I'm not finding ways to keep mobs consistently covered with non-trivial conditions like deep wound, dazed, blind, or weakness. (Maybe once I cap Fevered Dreams?)
A mesmer can use IW plus a bunch of defensive skills to fight melee, but their DPS and tanking ability is lower than a warrior or dervish (or even an assassin).
A mesmer can do e-denial better than any other class, but e-denial is nearly pointless in PvE.

So, there's your challenge mesmer fans: Find me a way to do one of the tasks on the list as well as every other class, or find me a task worth doing that I left off the list that a mesmer can do as well as every other class.

Let's hear those builds!

Toutatis · Dec 04, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

By "good" I mean a build that does something unconditionally useful in PvE

You're asking for the impossible here. Virtually all of the mesmer's skills are situational and depend on how enemies act and react in combat. Only one mesmer skill comes close to working everywhere in PvE, and that's Empathy (and even then I can think of one situation where that skill is the proverbial chocolate teapot). This means that a mesmer's build always has to keep changing as you go from area to area.

There is also one other thing that mesmers can do that you haven't put on your list: mesmers are considerably more efficient at removing hexes from the party than monks are (Hex Eater Signet, Shatter Hex, Inspired/Revealed Hex and Hex Eater Vortex are a few of the options here).

A "good" mesmer build is a build that is put together after carefully studying every ability that your enemies can use against you and is designed to counter, prevent or benefit from those abilities. You have a huge array of useful parlour tricks to pull from, and something to play off anything. In PvE, you do have the ability to plan ahead with great accuracy (compared to PvP mesmers who have to fight blind, as it were), and this is a big advantage for more reasons than just planning a build.

Painbringer · Dec 04, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Are you looking for a mixed bag or just Mesmer skills only?

I guess you can be uber awesome in pve with the following Mes / Rit

With the PVE skills

[skill]signet of illusions[/skill] [skill]Arcane Echo[/skill]Vanguard Assassin (PVE only Skill) [skill]Arcane Mimicry[/skill] [skill]Ancestors' Rage[/skill] [skill]spirit rift[/skill] [skill]Mend Body and Soul[/skill] [skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill]

Easy use signet of illusions then arcane echo then you can have two high level sins by your side.

No need to max any titles since Signet does it for you

Pick your friends wisely with Arcane Mimicry you can have any Max elite you want (except forms of course)

Spirit Rift and Rage for extra Damage

And Healing skills / condition removal if someone in your party brings a spirit as well.

Mesmers can excel in anything with Signet of Illusions

jsalvadore1325 · Dec 04, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

You're kind of missing the point of a mesmer if you want a build that will be always useful. Mesmers are designed as shutdown. Since you want to actually fulfill this duty, you need to think about what you're going to be up against and how to thwart it. If you're facing casters that can Spike with obsidian flame, bring Cry of frustration. Fighting melee enemies? Bring Empathy and other melee shutdown. Can't kill that aura of faith monk boss? Bring Backfire and other forms of caster hate. Fighting targets with 100+ armor? Bring illusionary weaponry or shrinking armor!

Plus there are many ways to make fast casting useful through the use of secondaries. Such as fast cast nuking and air-spiking. Or Fast cast anti-melee hexes.

There really is no all-around mesmering build, there is just to much variety and differences in each of their skills.

Stormlord Alex · Dec 04, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

[skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Rawr.

Seriously though... Tear through the trash mobs with UB, on a bar otherwise entirely devoted to eliminating the end-dungeon boss or whatever your goal is. It's win-win if you can lower yourself to using UB.

Chthon · Dec 05, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toutatis

Virtually all of the mesmer's skills are situational and depend on how enemies act and react in combat...This means that a mesmer's build always has to keep changing as you go from area to area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsalvadore1325

Mesmers are designed as shutdown. Since you want to actually fulfill this duty, you need to think about what you're going to be up against and how to thwart it.

Then I would settle for a series of builds, each one responding to a common situation, and addressing that situation at least as well as any other class could.

Quote:

There is also one other thing that mesmers can do that you haven't put on your list: mesmers are considerably more efficient at removing hexes from the party than monks are (Hex Eater Signet, Shatter Hex, Inspired/Revealed Hex and Hex Eater Vortex are a few of the options here).

That's true. But it's not a very useful role. Fearsome hexes are a rare thing in PvE -- and more than one fearsome hex per mob is even rarer. Most of the time, hexes that need removed can be dealt with without dedicating an entire build to do it, and the piddly degen hexes can be left for DKiss fodder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

[skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

OK...
1. Degenerate builds don't count.
2. Other classes with higher base armor or Soul Reaping or weapon mastery headgear/runes perform better with UB.
3. No, just no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Are you looking for a mixed bag or just Mesmer skills only?

Use the secondary as much as you want, but don't create a build that would play better on another primary.

Quote:

I guess you can be uber awesome in pve with the following Mes / Rit

With the PVE skills

[skill]signet of illusions[/skill] [skill]Arcane Echo[/skill]Vanguard Assassin (PVE only Skill) [skill]Arcane Mimicry[/skill] [skill]Ancestors' Rage[/skill] [skill]spirit rift[/skill] [skill]Mend Body and Soul[/skill] [skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill]

At first glance, this build strikes me as a vastly inferior minion master, but I will give it a try once I cap SoI before I make up my mind. It could be awhile before I reach NFJahai though...

Terraban · Dec 05, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

The best all round Mesmer build I can think of for PvE is....

[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill][skill]Fragility[/skill][skill]Accumulated Pain[/skill][skill]Power Return[/skill] Then other random skills.

Condition heavy team is brutal....Air ele with blind, cracked armor, weakness. BHA ranger with Apply poison. Some sort of burning from Para or another ele.

Nothing has the ability to amplify conditions like this does, unless you put the same skills on another profession.

Kwan Xi · Dec 05, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

If you have Guild Wars Factions/Nightfall and you want to primarily use Mesmer Skills you can use the PvE only skills. and use AoE skills that effect as many people as enemies as possible

Ether Nightmare is basicly AoE conjure phantasm, combined with Cry of Pain to do an AoE spike you don't have to interrupt the enemy for Cry of pain to do damage they just have to be hexed. You can also bring Conjure Phantasm/Nightmare as a fast backup degen in case you missed someone.

Maybe bring Arcane Conundrum on a group of casters so they cast spells slower, and Shared Burden (elite) on a group of tanks to slow them all down.

You could go Domination and be a Spiker maybe Echo Cry of Frustration, or be Support Class help remove hexes and enchantments off enemies. Energy Surge is pertty good in PvE especially when combined with Arcane Echo. maybe Pack a Rez so you can take advantage of fast casting?

You could also be a Echo Nuker? use Fast Casting to quickly cast Echo+Meteor Shower everywhere.

Zorian Direspell · Dec 05, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Posting for the 10k

Signet of Illusions + Vanguard Assassins + Asuran Mursaat Summon + Radiation Field or whatever it's called. Add whatever you want. Massive degen, summons, etc. Not very fun though, as you don't feel like a mesmer, so ...

General PvE build

Empathy, Spirit Shackles, Mantra of Recovery, Ether Feast, Power Drain or Energy Tap, Backfire or Power Spike, Open Slot, Res

Use Empathy and SS on non-boss physical attackers (warriors, assasins, rangers, dervishes, paragons (not as much paragons though)) . SS works especially well on shutting down assassins and dervishes that need energy to be dangerous (and which don't have absurd energy pools even at higher levels). Mantra allows you to spam empathy/SS. Use power drain or E-tap for energy recovery. Note that interrupts work better against casting bosses than a hex like Backfire would (because hexes expire quicker against bosses than ordinary enemies. Feel free to use the open slot for utility, defense, or whatever. You'll need high fast casting and domination, not as much in inspiration (ten seconds of SS will do the trick usually).

Shut down enemy casters and attackers, while doing nice amounts of armor ignoring damage. Mantra of Recovery really is great for PvE.

BohemianKeith · Dec 05, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

My Character8

Mesmer/Assassin
Level: 20

Fast Casting: 9 (8+1)
Domination Magic: 14 (12+2)
Deadly Arts: 10

Power Spike (Domination Magic)
If target foe is casting a Spell or Chant, the Skill is interrupted and target foe takes 114 damage.
Energy:5 Cast:0.18 Recharge:12

Cry of Pain (Mesmer other)
Interrupt target foe's skill If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex that foe and all foes in the area take 40..100 damage
Energy:10 Cast:0.18 Recharge:15

"You Move Like a Dwarf!" ( )
Target foe is knocked down and takes 5..15 damage. When that foe gets up, it is Crippled for 30..80 seconds.
Energy:10 Cast:0 Recharge:10

Assassin's Promise [Elite] (Deadly Arts)
For 12 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 15 Energy, and all your skills are recharged.
Energy:5 Cast:0.53 Recharge:45

Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support ( )
Summon a level 20..30 Ebon Vanguard Assassin that has Iron Palm, Fox Fangs and Nine Tail Strike. This summoned Assassin Shadow Steps to target foe. If that foe is a Charr the Assassin lives for 10..20 seconds. If not the Assassin lives for 10..15 seconds
Energy:10 Cast:0.71 Recharge:30

Empathy (Domination Magic)
For 14 seconds, whenever target foe attacks, that foe takes 43 damage.
Energy:10 Cast:1.42 Recharge:10

Shatter Hex (Domination Magic)
Remove a Hex from target ally. If a Hex is removed, foes near that ally take 114 damage.
Energy:15 Cast:0.71 Recharge:10

Energy Burn (Domination Magic)
Target foe loses 8 Energy and takes 12 damage for each point of Energy lost.
Energy:10 Cast:1.42 Recharge:20

First off sorry about the format i suck at these things.

This is what i'm currently been using for eotn. The main idea is to use AP for both quick recharges and energy management so you can spam skills like ebon asn support, or you move like a dwarf or other various pve or mesmer skills. I change this build constantly depending on what area i'm in but i've always kept , power spike, empathy, AP, shatter hex. With all the pve skills out there you can easily adapt to the job most required at the moment such as melee control, caster shutdown, etc. Sorry if this isn't overly detailed because there are so many different variations so just go by the main idea of using AP with mesmer control skills , dont care about the money just hope this helps i know how annoying it is to find a spot in pve.

Winterclaw · Dec 05, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

[skill]Flare[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Channeling[/skill]

Spam mesmer???

some guy · Dec 05, 2007, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Cannot interrupt E-wise or skill wise? non sense!

My general PvE build, been using it for a while. Tested by 3 campaigns, fourth 1 right now (GWEN)

[skill]ineptitude[/skill][skill]clumsiness[/skill][skill]frustration[/skill][skill]cry of pain[/skill][skill]web of disruption[/skill][skill]power drain[/skill][skill]drain enchantment[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill]

Estic · Dec 05, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

The best all round Mesmer build I can think of for PvE is....

[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill][skill]Fragility[/skill][skill]Accumulated Pain[/skill][skill]Power Return[/skill] Then other random skills.

Condition heavy team is brutal....Air ele with blind, cracked armor, weakness. BHA ranger with Apply poison. Some sort of burning from Para or another ele.

Nothing has the ability to amplify conditions like this does, unless you put the same skills on another profession.

QFT.

I bring a Virulence MM Necro with shamblings. Poison, Disease and Bleeding reach -12 total, so no need for a fire ele. I bring pin down on my ranger, and no apply poison. If you have a prolonged fight he stops to reapply poison and misses the BHA shot. Besides, my virulence MM applies poison and having minions around is just great for soaking up (initial) damage. It's sort of a group shutdown.

For more information see here (shamelessly plugging my own thread

).

Edit: For unconditional use... I've almost vanquished Tyria (45/54) with H/H and only changed the build once, for Rotscale. I think I could have gotten him down but I wanted it over and done with.

Cebe · Dec 05, 2007, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

[skill]Flare[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Channeling[/skill]

Spam mesmer???

Needs Glyph of Immolation in my opinion.

blue.rellik · Dec 05, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Maybe a [skill]Mind Blast[/skill] spammer with some occasional utility?

Painbringer · Dec 05, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Needs Glyph of Immolation in my opinion.

And also [skill]Elemental Attunement[/skill] Has that air machine gun feel to it

John Panda · Dec 05, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

what is "good" in pve?

.__.

John Panda · Dec 05, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

[skill]Flare[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Channeling[/skill]

Spam mesmer???

flare STILL sucks.

Chthon · Dec 05, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

1. No more vanguard assassin + SoI builds, please.

I'm very, very dubious that they can compete with a minion master at summoning. Though I will wait until after I drag my butt through NF and cap SoI to be sure.
In the unlikely event that vanguard assassins do turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread, Painbringer already posted it, so there's no point in posting it again.

2. Fevered Dreams appears promising. But, you can't co-opt the rest of the team's builds to make it work. (Or, rather, if you require a cross-team synergy, your X builds taken as a unit must meet the same standard of "good" as compared to any other unit of X synergized builds that I'm asking for from a single build.) 10 AoE degen doesn't compare with a necro unless you can do it in two non-elite slots. AoE deep would is niiiice, but it alone is not enough to justify a place on the team. Come up with something that reliably puts down AoE deep wound plus other A-list conditions like daze, blind, and weaken (in AoE) and then we'd have a build worthy of its spot on any team.

(Apropos of the above, A Fevered Dreams Me/E with skills like blinding surge, enervating charge, shell shock, technobabble, and "finish him" might do the trick, IF the energy load could be managed.)

3. Since i see some folks forgetting it, please bear in mind that I am looking for a build that performs its role at least as well as any other class could perform that role:

For direct damage builds, remember that you have to match the DPS of SF eles and their ilk. Neither flare spam nor echo-ESurge comes close.
For curse damage builds, remember that you have to match the DPS on the (un)holy trinity of SS + Barbs + MoP. Empathy alone doesn't come close.
For melee-shutdown builds, remember that both warders and curse necros reduce incoming melee damage by 50%+ on an AoE basis; you need to match that.
For Interruption builds, remember that rangers can hand out daze, disable skills, pay less than 10e per interrupt, and recharge their interrupts fast enough to leave room on the bar for significant damage dealing; you need to match that.

Terraban · Dec 05, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Fevered Dreams appears promising. But, you can't co-opt the rest of the team's builds to make it work. (Or, rather, if you require a cross-team synergy, your X builds taken as a unit must meet the same standard of "good" as compared to any other unit of X synergized builds that I'm asking for from a single build.) 10 AoE degen doesn't compare with a necro unless you can do it in two non-elite slots. AoE deep would is niiiice, but it alone is not enough to justify a place on the team. Come up with something that reliably puts down AoE deep wound plus other A-list conditions like daze, blind, and weaken (in AoE) and then we'd have a build worthy of its spot on any team.

(Apropos of the above, A Fevered Dreams Me/E with skills like blinding surge, enervating charge, shell shock, technobabble, and "finish him" might do the trick, IF the energy load could be managed.)

Well, as a mesmer you will be with heroes n hench the majority of the time, so you can add the condition heavy teammates :P

Otherwise, I don't think it is possible to do anything better than other professions with only your skill bar.